Exceprt
from Action
Attack Helicopter's Sander Hicks Interview, Part
2
[Regarding
Hicks' appearance on 60 Minutes in defense of
Bush biography Fortunate Son.]
Kurt: I guess I was also wondering: is Leslie
Stahl hot, or is she just old? *laughs*
Sander:
She IS hot. And in fact, Leslie Stahl is poised
and graceful and intelligent and has written a
book called "Reporting Live". She's been the White
House correspondent since the Nixon years. She
saw Reagan going senile as far back as '82 and
was prevented by CBS corporate from reporting
it. There's a really crucial lesson about television
in "Reporting Live". They had put together a piece
that was critical of Reagan about how on the surface
he has really got the country's support and has
caught the country's imagination. He uses television
and images really well. And he's great on screen.
He's charismatic. But they wrote this program
that talked about the realities of his social
programs. As soon as he entered the White House
in '81, he was rolling back social programs left
and right. There was a shock going through the
media about the severity of it. So, they had a
voiceover in the program about that. And they
broadcast this piece on CBS. It had some really
intense visuals counterpoised with the voiceovers.
They had Reagan with a thousand balloons being
let go, etc. Leslie Stahl gets a call from the
White House and they're like, "Thank you so much!"
And
she's like, "What do you mean, 'Thank you so much!'?
Aren't you actually listening to the voiceover?"
and the White House guy says, "It doesn't matter.
The visuals are all that really counts."
And
this was born out later on by some sort of poll
they did about the show and there's something
in the book about how he was right. It doesn't
matter what they're saying, it's just all about
the visuals on television.
Kurt:
That's crazy. Goodness. So ideally, who would
you like to see be president? Besides yourself.
Sander:
I actually think this country needs a revolution
more than it needs a better president. The entire
system has to be dismantled from top to bottom
and a new political system needs to be put in
its place. I'm a Marxist, so I believe that economics
impact every aspect of society. The core values
of society are based on economic values. So, to
really dismantle the state, you have to create
a whole new economic ethos or core principle.
I voted for Nader, but I don't think Nader would
even begin to be the solution that we need. It's
a sad state of affair when reform doesn't even
work. Even today at dinner with Aunt Phyllis I
had a moment of clarity because she's a big admirer
of McCain even though she's more of a Democrat
and I talked to her about Karl Rove and how he
spread the rumors of McCain's temper after McCain
won New Hampshire. Rove was able to scuttle his
campaign through outspending him and also spreading
rumors about his supposed temper that comes from
being locked up in Vietnam. Which may or may not
be true, but if it comes from Rove I tend to think
it's not true. It's probably something that's
half-true that he then spread around and embellished
because he knew how politically pragmatic it would
be. But anyway, my point here is that I was telling
Aunt Phyllis that it's a sad state of affairs
when the system cannot reform itself. When you
have a charismatic true leader come out and say
that we need campaign finance reform and this
guy is not necessarily a left-wing political thinker.
He's a right wing political thinker and he sees
that the system is oligarchic and corrupt and
not fair. ItŐs not fair when someone can't run
on the strength of their ideas, but they also
need a huge chunk of capital. I said that if the
system can't reform itself, then we need new methods.
We need direct action, general strike and we need
revolution. And that means militant revolution.
Kurt:
*pauses* Cool. I like where this is going. So,
this raises a bunch of questions now. Would you
say that your ideas are idealistic?
Sander:
Well, define idealism. In the philosophical tradition
I'm talking about--
Kurt:
You can accomplish things that might seem idealistic.
Sander:
Marxism is just the philosophical system of materialism.
We're using materialism here as the opposite of
platonic idealism. Plato was always talking about
these absolutes and talking about how nothing
in this world exists and how this world is nothing
but shadows for these absolute, metaphysical things
that actually exist only in our minds. Those are
the only things that are real. But we're saying,
no. What's real is money, people, work, life and
death, health care, food. Those are the things
that are real. Those are the things that matter.
And on top of that things like culture and art.
But culture reflects the mechanics of the economic
system. One of the things I'm fond of saying and
which is somewhat controversial is that all culture
is political. All culture reflects some political
ethos. Even like Brittany Spears or Whitney Houston--not
that I really know those people's work all that
well--people tend to think of their work as apolitical,
but I don't think anything is apolitical. If it
doesnŐt have smart politics, deep politics or
revolutionary politics, it tends to just reflect
the politics of the ruling class. Punk rock is
the same way. If punk rock is apolitical and it's
just the same old shit, then it's not worthy of
support.
Kurt:
Do you ever think that things can be seen in other
sociological terms besides political, such as
spiritual? A lot of people see the world in spiritual
terms or based on your sex or your ethnicity.
Do you ever see any of those?
Sander:
That seems like four different questions. Let's
take the first one.
Kurt:
I guess I just meant if you see it as a possibility
that there's other things. I mean, I'm just playing
devil's advocate here.
Sander:
Yeah. You're talking about worldviews. First of
all, obviously no. I mean, the world view I have
is the one I've come to through different worldviews
and this is the one I think is the best. But at
the same time I am a spiritual person. I mean,
I know how to use the Bible. I know the Bible
pretty well. I mean, there's some great revolutionary
stuff in the book of Isaiah.
Kurt:
I think that if you look at Old Testament stuff,
it seems to me that from what I've studied, if
God would have his way things would be all equal
for everybody. There'd be justice for everyone
and there'd be no poor but people keep messing
it up.
Sander:
Right. So what is God, though? For me, I'm realizing
that the definition of God in this age is kind
of up for grabs. It's obviously not a guy. It's
not some sort of white-bearded figure that has
a personality or has human characteristics like
a body or a face or things like jealousy or rage.
I do think, though, that it's our own human minds
that place these things on God almost like it's
a Mr. Potato Head. We place these things that
are artificial onto God that are ridiculous. In
that way I'm an atheist about that God for certain.
I'm a classic Marxist in a lot of ways about that
God. But then the thing that's kind of heretical
where my thinking is going these days about possibly
getting closer to re-inventing the definition
of God as the spirit of history itself or the
spirit of thought or the idea itself. There's
some songs on the White Collar Crime about that,
I think. There's some songs I wrote when I was
just sort of coming upon those ideas about a year
ago from last June when I was back in the woods.
I wrote "The White Collar Crime Fight Song" and
"The Veils" on the same day and I wrote some stuff
about God and the re-invention of God.
Kurt:
People are gonna love you when they hear this.
Sander:
Well, I think people are ready because there's
a lot of cynicism. And I think that post-modernity
is one big problem. It's one big crisis. It's
one big empty shell. I hate it and I think a lot
of people do; both on the left and on the right.
Both people that are intensely political and intensely
spiritual. And I think we're all intensely political
and intensely spiritual. I don't think there is
a person out there who is a normal person, i.e.
bland, doesn't care about anything, doesn't have
any characteristics. We all have characteristics.
When you get to know people, that's when they
become unique and incredible and political and
spiritual. And not everyone is describing things
in those terms, but they are.
Kurt:
I was just saying that you should come out here
and explain your views to people.
Sander:
Oh, I'll come out there and preach. I'll do a
tent revival. It'd be like, "This is Sander. He's
a new thinker. He's going to be speaking about
God and then his band White Collar Crime will
play their unique gospel arrangements." I don't
know if you've heard the MP3 on the web site,
but we used to play a song called "God is Kick
Ass". It's kind of the more atheist approach that
God is nothing but power and might and hatred.
We see that right now. We see this confused society
dress itself in these flags and that God is just
hate and force and revenge. I mean the worst aspect
of all this was this bumper sticker I read that
said, "God May Forgive You, But We Won't".
Kurt:
Ugh.
Sander:
How can you believe in a God that you're not going
to aspire to be like? Fuck you.
Kurt:
You'd have to say that in your sermon of course.
Sander:
Oh, I'm not afraid of saying "fuck you" to the
devil. Because the devil does exist.
Kurt:
And what is he, do you think?
Sander:
Well, hubris, in a lot of ways. Pride. He's also
exploitation and the soul of capitalism. The illusion.
He's a trickster. And capitalism is one big series
of tricks and illusions, weaving a fabric of desire
and inadequacy on the surface. It's one big psychological
headfuck.
Kurt:
Some of my friends described their high school
as that.
Sander:
Yeah. Sure. And your high school is reflecting
capitalist, social relations. Cliques, classes.
Force. That's how I became a Marxist.
Kurt:
Through force? *laughs*
Sander:
No. I realized that the guys at the bottom were
the smart guys but they didn't know how to manipulate
the power structure of the high school and the
class. At the top of the high school in terms
of popularity, in terms of political elections
were these jocks who weren't all that smart, but
they knew how to dominate. Their political power
was a question of force. The anarchists take on
government is that all government is force. It's
all based on the gun. It's based on trying to
keep themselves in power. It's not based on the
consent of the governed.
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