Sander Hicks interviews Charlie Kassay

After the anti-fascist protest experience, on 8/24/02 in D.C.

1. How did the protest compare to how you thought it would go?

Tthis was my first protest of any kind and so I had absolutely no clue what to expect or what was going to happen. I was a little bit weary of going and what could happen, because these are Neo-Nazis here-even through all of the self delusion and attempts at looking more civilized and reasonable in their ideas and ethics-I know the reality was that these people were still nothing but thugs. Yet, on the flip side of things, I was also worried I might not be "radical enough", "tough, hardcore or violent enough" and that I'd just come across as the "wimpy liberal of the bunch". Now, thankfully, I think both concerns were squashed pretty early on and I felt safe on both ends.

Now another part of me also has to me admit that I went mostly because when the shit hits the fan or it's time to step up, whether you're afraid, nervous or anything else, you just have to go, step up and take responsibility for the world so heathens like the one's on the Nazi side won't become too strong again and have any sort of take over anywhere. At the same time, I didn't know if there was a point to our counter rally. Was it just anarchists, radicals and revolutionaries screaming at the Nazis from their side of the Capital building line, with the Neo-Nazis were screaming at us from theirs? Maybe neither side of the line mattered to the powers that be in the end and so perhaps while it felt righteous, was it also kind of just a bit of wasted time and energy when other issues like universal healthcare, real campaign finance reform, globalization, a living wage, and the causes of prejudice and continual crimes against minorities in America were being neglected for some wholesale conflict and sabotage.

You never know whether what you did was worthwhile, relevant, or had any effect, but there was a diverse enough group of people from the ISO, to punk rockers, to various anarchist groups, to peace groups, to SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice and even some black radical groups all getting along for this one cause and and taking care of each other so I didn't feel uncomfortable. More got done through the chaos of it all than I initially expected too: one Nazi bus's tire was supposedly slashed and put out of commission and a few cars were turned back by the rambuctiousness and enthusiasm of some of the most passionate at the counter-rally.

2. What was your take on the Anti-Nazi violence you witnessed?

This question is a tough one to answer, because it has many varying implications, one of which is to probably to make me look like a complete and utter soft-hearted wussy (laughs), but I was there right on the front lines witnessing two or three Nazis getting beat down by some of the people on our side (including my friend Sander). It almost seemed too easy, like a set-up and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. The group of Neo-Nazis literally had just walked past to go to the Capitol, we were heading over to intercept and challenge them from our side of the barricades and on the way over there there just happened to be some Neo-Nazis walking around right in the middle of us heading over. It just didn't seem real almost and my friend Sander even joked afterwards that "I'm beginning to wonder if I didn't just pound on some gothic-looking German tourists or something."

Now, honestly though, while witnessing what was going on and seeing the two or three of them getting nailed on by my friend Sander, this big huge black dude that would have made me shit a brick and another small but fiery and dynamic girl with the chain of her wallet, I couldn't help but get caught up in the humanity even of the enemy, which surprised me. Initially I had ran as fast as I could to have my friend's back and to make sure nothing bad happened to him, but as I watched these two or three Neo-nazis, how totally scared and mouse-like they seemed underneath the weight of it all, somehow and for some reason unbeknownst to me (even though I knew who they were and what they represented), I had to and did eventually get in-between to stop what was going on, because I couldn't watch anymore and this seemed as brutal and thuggish as what we'd obviously object to on the other side. This move ironically, did help our side a little bit too though, because it stopped the thrashing just in the nick of time and just before the cops who were coming over could witness anything.

I don't know how effective this truly was or if all that was left from the exchange was the bruises and physical pain they got because of it all. Even though they were Neo-Nazis and might have presumably done the same thing to me if it were the other way around, I couldn't get around the fact that they were human beings, that I could see the fear in their eyes and how helpless they were in the face of it all.

My feelings are still mixed in terms of what I witnessed up above, because I don't know what it accomplished, what it did and because it's very hard for me to look at another human being harmed by another human being on any level, but, if you do mean by violence against the Nazis, things like some of the more fiery of our bunch jumping on Nazi cars and turning them away, slashing bus tires and the like, I'm very proud of that. So I guess to me the question is and should be, "How much of what you're doing is truly revolutionary, doing something for the cause and getting things done and how much is just people trying to make themselves feel better as leftist people, radicals and so on?" Now if it's for the good for the cause, I'm all for it, but when it doesn't seem to have a point except to beat someone you hate down for hateful they are, I still just don't know, I really don't.

3. What did you believe about the role of the police and how did that change?

I don't know if I was the exception to the rule or what but I saw the cops as the intermediaries, working people doing their jobs and people who were just there to make sure things didn't get too chaotic, violent and to assure that nobody gets out of hand or hurt. Unfortunately, you could deem them as aiding and abetting the Neo-Nazi cause and say how it does look that way, but they're supposed to be neutral and I even heard from another protestor who did have a conversation with one of the cops that the cop answered the question of "Do you even know who's having this rally and who the people in front of the Capital building are?" with a "No, I try not to think about it, because I've just got a job to do and task at hand."

So I quite simply thought of the cops as people put into a very weird and awkward situation, because quite frankly this was their job, they needed the money (like all working class people need money in this world) and I didn't envy their position at all, because there were Neo-Nazis on one side of the line (scary fucking dudes, to say the least) and then of course everyone on our side screaming out shit like "The cops, courts, the Ku-Klux Klan, all are part of the bosses plan." So again my humanity couldn't help but step in and I couldn't help but feel a sense of sympathy for these people. I couldn't even imagine for a second what it's like to be a cop, having a job that put me in that type of situation, put in-between two groups of people, one of which is horribly and disgustingly hateful and the other who is a little bit more righteous in their cause but still automatically hates me for no other reason than me being part of the men in blue. So I tried to look at it from their standpoint and even had one cop tell me after I held my friend Sander back a couple of times and made sure he didn't do anything too extreme and crazy as the Neo-Nazis walked past after their rally in front of the Capital, that "you were straight and good the whole time. So thanks for the help with it all." Now I still don't know if it's a compliment at all for me to be told "I was good" by a cop and if I should really deep down as someone on our side take that as an insult (laughs), but I was proud at the time because it kind of confirmed to me what having an open and loving heart can do for you as a human being.

At the same time, I also got to witness the flip side of the coin and it was weird, scary, disillusioning and shocking all at once. There was a conflict going on because, going on half an hour after the rally was done, some Neo-Nazis and an Animal Liberation guy met in the middle of it all once again. Sander and I went to go check it out. No sooner than we got there though we heard one of the cops say to the Animal Liberation guy, "What the fuck is wrong with you? Listen, if you want hostility and to start a conflict, I'll bring you a conflict and I've got this club to back me up." So seeing this was unbelievable and of course Sander being Sander had to say something in the Animal Liberation's guys defense about "freedom of speech." So the cop got really mad then and said if we don't get out of there there's definitely going to be some hell to pay. Being that I obviously didn't want that at all, I pulled my friend aside and began to walk down the road with him to leave. This obviously didn't seem good enough for this cop though, because now "we'd have to stop going the direction we were going in to leave, turn around and go this way because he said so" and sensing all of this hostility and not believing it I kind of just on instinct said, "Why are you yelling at me? What the fuck did I do? I've tried to be nothing but peaceful and to avoid conflict here". The cop's answer quite simply being, "you're guilty by association" and so for just being there with my friend and no other reason than that I was one of them and an enemy in his eyes. Now I probably should have known that would be the case, but to have the worst things you've heard about cops proven to you in one fail swoop, I must say it was heart-breaking and hurtful since I try to be fair to all people.

So I still don't know what I make of my total experience there, as I don't like to generalize and insert point-blank "all cops are pigs" just because this one guy definitely was acting like one, but I will say it definitely was a huge wake-up call to the fact that because "I was guilty by association" and essentially because of it "automatically one of the enemy," no matter how fair, kind and compassionate I try to be to all peoples, radical history is right, none of my fairness and innocence will stop the club hitting my head when the shit goes down and really hits the fan.

4. What were some of the memorable things you think you'll remember

that people said years from now?

The conversations we had in the car on the way up, the friends houses and parents I met, the wonderful and kind NY librarian and radical we picked up on the way back (hi Kristina!), how everyone I talked to seemed to have their own unique and wonderful perspective on it all and to bring something to the table in terms of our crew and just the rally in general.

Most of all, I'll probably remember what a friend of mine named Sara told me back in the day. It was really put into context by the events of the day. We used to argue about politics all of the time and a lot of times her last words were, "Well, it's nice to see that you care so much, are pretty well-read and everything, but until you hit the streets, your opinion is tainted and doesn't really mean anything in the end." That always confounded me back then, it seemed so condescending, hurtful and arrogant, but the weird thing is being at this rally, it really did show me that I didn't know anything at all before this and couldn't have, until this day and time. So coming to this realization and to discuss it with Sander on the way back home in the car was pretty powerful to me as well.

Now that and everything a Brandon Welch from DareDevil Psychomautic Research Ensemble (www.daredevilpre.org) said to the media at the rally definitely was what hit me the most the personally. I was so proud and glad for the fact we had someone like that representing us to the media, as he did so in a very calm, thoughtful and reasonable manner and just explained in simple and human words why he felt the Nazi's were rallying (to make themselves look like more and more of a reasonable and credible political entity in the United States), what their real agenda actually was (it still basically isn't anything different than Germany nevertheless, folks), how they exploit people in their youth who are lost and insecure for their own purposes and are essentionally in some cases just building walking time bombs that could explode at any moment. Now, I swear to God, to hear him explain it like that it was like watching the movie "American History X" playing through out my head right then and there all over again, and so it really showed me how important it was to fight the Nazi's in more ways than just the initial one, because even the kids on their side are indeed still people and in many ways also getting screwed.

5. What could have been improved at the protest overall?

I wish it was a smidgen more creative, better put together and educational. Look at the anti-globalization movement, they have props, puppets and creative things like Billionaires for Bush that are funny, educational-a real thoughtful and poignant way to stick it to the powers that be. There was supposed to be (and probably was somewhere) a huge Hate music show in the area also after the rally (which is something that scares me just as much and maybe even a little bit more than the actual rally in front of the Capital, because it rallies in more of the poor suckers and the insecure for the future.) So there should have been an alternative concert to counter what these people were doing as well.

While, finally, there was also a huge consensus in our car that the passion to fight the Anti-racism cause is stirred up ten times as much when there's a face-to-face conflict with people like the Neo-Nazis themselves. The system usually works in mysterious ways though to me. They want things like globalization, free trade and things like that to seem as harmless, docile and problem-free as possible and that's why they go into hiding and do all of their meetings secretly, but I don't think that means that fighting these people is any less powerful or relevant, it just feels a little bit less because they're hidden behind walls, closed curtains and everything else. So if I had anything to say in the end, I'd probably say "beware of letting the hate that you saw from the Neo-Nazis turn you into someone just as reactionary as they are", because I imagine in my head just clash after clash of the far left (or at least people motivated by what went down at this rally) against the Neo-Nazis and the powers that be secret laughing at us as we've fallen into this trap of theirs of the young right-wing working class versus the leftist version once again. So I'd say you could and should learn that fighting the Neo-Nazis can be fun and surprisingly effective (three cheers to that bus being taken down and some of their cars being turned back), but the revolution is our real goal in the end and so we mustn't forget that larger goal either while we're in the process of fighting pigs and scum like this.

 

 

Read HICKS' view on the weekend, too.

 

Oh, and don't forget—

How Can you Tell the Difference Between President Bush and the KKK?
You Can't Sometimes.