HICKS: What do you think about The Bell Curve?

HOROWITZ: Well, I've never been a big fan of IQ. I am not a social scientist. In my view, one, IQ can not explain a lot of things that people in that field think it can, and #2, I'm not persuaded, I think that IQ does change over time, subject to environmental, cultural factors.

HICKS: What do you think about Bush's IQ?

HOROWITZ: I think that Bush is, I'm not entirely unhappy about this, drastically underestimated by liberals and leftists. Not even in a small part. I think he has a, I think he has some kind of dyslexia or something....the way he talks in public is not the way he talks. I have no idea why. Why his TV presentations are really not up to where he is. I didn't have any...he talks very slowly, and he makes these mistakes all the time. I spent two hours with him, I spent more than that actually, but the two hours I spent I interviewed him also, I spent having a discussion with him with all these issues....This work that you're doing, you won't even begin to understand, the people that you're writing about, Rove and what he comes out of....

HICKS: Well if you really want to know the truth about how I got into this I'll give you a little anecdote. Do you want to hear it?

HOROWITZ: Go ahead.

HICKS: I got into republishing Fortunate Son mainly because of the acrimony, we're an independent publisher, fiercely independent, we define yourselves as a negation to big business, big media, we find them to be sterile and cowardly. This is a great opportunity both politically, in a general American way, and as a business move, it seemed to be a good move all around. Plus, there's a level of risk and adventure, so it worked for about five different reasons. It's been a huge roller coaster. We've been sued....So anyway, It's taken me about a year or so to understand exactly how it was that our author, J.H.Hatfield got this information on Bush's cocaine arrest in 1972.

HOROWITZ: Mmm hmm.

HICKS: And there were these three confidential sources, and a lot of reporters wanted to know the sources when the book was killed in October 1999.

HOROWITZ: Mmm Hmm.

HICKS: In fact, I'd like to refer you to my piece published on our website, the new Publisher's Preface that's at press right now in the new edition. We've revealed these sources now, and one of them is Rove. hatfield was in contact with Rove throughout his research process, during Fortunate Son originally. In August of '99, Salon were the first people to break this news. They got this tip and reported it: Bush was arrested for cocaine possession in 1972, and that's why he did volunteer community service at Project P.U.L.L. in Houston. So Hatfield called Rove back up and he called Clay Johnson and got the full story from them. The reason they actually GAVE him the full story, albeit with some flaws that were deliberate so they could later discredit him, was that I think they already knew Hatfield was a felon. They could discredit the entire story, they could manipulate the media. They could use Hatfield, and release Hatfield's record, release it to the Dallas Morning News that Hatfield himself was a felon. They could completely sweep the media, wipe the slate clean, and take the media's focus on Bush and Bush's wild years, and cast the spotlight right back on Hatfield. Destroy the news of Bush's drug history by destroying the messenger. Which is genius, in some ways....

HOROWITZ: Yeah. I thank Karl Rove if he did that, and the country thanks him and the world thanks him.

HICKS: The question is don't the American People deserve to know what the background of their President is?

HOROWITZ: Ha Ha Ha! [pause] NO. He told them. He told them, "25 years," and they accepted that. And that was that.

HICKS: He obfuscated.

HOROWITZ: He said 25 years.

HICKS: Right, he said he could pass a Federal test.

HOROWITZ: I certainly don't think they have a right to know it, and I don't think that it's at all relevant. What's relevant is what the man has done with his life.

HICKS: Well what has he done with his life? As a businessman, he lost $380 million of other people's money.

HOROWITZ: You're making me very nervous about talking to you. I appreciate your candor, but it doesn't make any sense for me to be on this line.

HICKS: What are Bush's accomplishments in your eyes?

HOROWITZ: Well, what did Camille Paglia say of Gore? That he's a weightless schizophrenic? I believe that Gore and Clinton committed treason. Why the fuck should....I mean I think that Bush is saving the country....You're talking to the wrong guy. If you want to pursue this line...you're talking to the wrong guy. I can't talk to you. I mean, I don't want to talk to you. I'm interested in your Leftist, I mean your intellectual issues.

HICKS: Let's back up.

HOROWITZ: You need to read what I've written about China. I mean these guys have sold your future and your children's to the fucking Chinese.

HICKS: You're talking about Gore.

HOROWITZ: I'm talking about Clinton and Gore. They dealt with the agents of the....

HICKS: Unfortunately I'm not writing a book on Gore and Clinton, I'm writing a book on Rove.

HOROWITZ: My view is the election of Bush is saving this country.

HICKS: As a negation of the....Democrats.

HOROWITZ: Exactly.

HICKS: Well it's like Bertrand Russell said, Christianity isn't a real philosophy because it's just a negation.

HOROWITZ: Well I don't believe that at all...I believe that Bush...yeah...with the Democrats in power, poor people are fucked, this country is fucked, and the world is fucked. That's what I think of the Democrats. Bush is a decent human being...probably as good a President as we had since Reagan, I mean certainly.

HICKS: But the question again is...OK I'm going to do a quick clarification and then move on here and wrap up. I don't want you to like, not be able to like, answer to the question of what are Bush's actual accomplishments of his life.

HOROWITZ: I'll tell you something. As a guy who was obviously disordered, obviously an alcoholic, he turned his life around. There's not a lot of people, there are people you can point to, but there are not a lot. If you have ever been through a mid life crisis, or had to deal with that level of disorder, you don't know how hard it is. Try losing an inch off your waistline.

HICKS: Yeeeaaahh, but we're talking, sir, about the President of the United States.

HOROWITZ: Yeah and what he did in Texas is raise the African American kids grade scores to the highest in the country. That to me, alone, is a qualification of being President. The guy really cares. With the Republican Party in Texas he got 30% of the black vote....

HICKS: Sir, those are actually proven to be falsified numbers.

HOROWITZ: 27%! What do you want?

HICKS: Those numbers are actually false. I hate to tell you but....There's been studies at the University of Texas.... I'll email you the data...both the Black and Latino votes were fabricated, they jumped on this data, and then they reported the data mainly because they wanted to bury Gary Mauro [at the polls] and they wanted to show that Bush was ready for the Presidency. They wanted to do a landslide against this already weak Democratic challenger. So that they could show that Bush was ready for the White House.

HOROWITZ: The entire press corps missed this?

HICKS: It happens, yeah. Karl Rove refused to comment to the one reporter....

HOROWITZ: I really don't have time for all this, if you don't like Bush, you don't like Bush.

HICKS: Well you know what it is, I'm just asking the right questions, that's all.

HOROWITZ: I don't think we have much to talk about. I will send you the books. And if you ever want to talk about....

HICKS: No it's been a good conversation David, I appreciate you taking the time.

HOROWITZ: Not for me it hasn't.

HICKS: Oh, come on. The first 45 minutes were great....

HOROWITZ: You just wasted my time.

[He hangs up the phone.] .

And now the moment we've all been waiting for Click here for my post-game wrap up.